Curse

Draracle · Feb 08, 2006, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by d3kst3r

. . . If you get gang rushed by wars you'd have to hope your specced for that kind of thing I guess.

You will probably have more success building for use in all situations. This can be tricky and will likely mean a loss of effectiveness. But a balance mesmer, while might not pwn a certain class as much as a build dedicated to one end, will upset the other team enough in all situations to give your team the victory. As Avarre said, E-surge is popular because you can use it on everyone to a similar effect.

tuperwho · Feb 08, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

I find that people in PvE are starting to warm up to the necessity of mesmers. Just the other day, I did a PuG in new (UW) tombs. I joined a group who had an exact build they were mandating. 2 monks, 2 tanks, yadda yadda, and a mesmer. So I join them, and there's all sorts of skill and attribute assigning going on. I wait my turn, then ask "Is there any particular skills I should bring, or roles I should fill?". The response was: "just do whatever you do". So it's a weird situation that mesmers are currently in for PvE. People are starting to see the need, but they don't know the skills well enough to try to make you fill a certain role. I really like it. I can feel wanted, but still have the freedom to use my skills how I see fit (which is appropriate, as most mesmers know the skill availability really well, and are only hinderred by being forced to take certain skills).

Avarre · Feb 08, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Meh, I was lucky enough to find a PuG that wanted and appreciated mesmerdom in its ranks for FoW earlier. I was asked to bring some anti-caster skills, I replied I was set to harm both casters and warriors, and that was fine. The run went well on almost all account, except I ended up tanking tower of str/beach with book because the tank left (the horrible book, I scrub and scrub and still feel dirty!). During the run, a thought that danced around in my head made itself more known.

Mesmers, while often being zeroed in on by monsters, are invulnerable in PvE

Seriously.

Because so many of mesmer attacks negate the enemy rather than dealing full damage (Inepititude, conundrum, SV, etc), while remaining offensive in your skillset you can handle virtually any aggro breach without risk. We even get the ONLY 75% evade permanently maintainable stance. Our attacks (well, for the hexers among us) are fire-and-forget mainly, so we can still fight as viciously as an Elementalist, and at the same time be merrily kiting, blinding one foe and evading another 3.

Mesmers in PvE don't take any risk whatsoever. We hex from the back lines, have interrupts and hex removal (even a hex blocking stance!) to protect us from casters, snares, blinding... the only time I ever die in FoW now is because of knockdown (abyssals!) or ranger spike (quad-barrage!). That means, so long as I bring rebirth, my team literally cannot be defeated, unless one of those pansy Eternals dies or I get trapped with nowhere to retreat to. Sometimes when Aatxes break aggro in UW, I've blocked and tanked them with the aid of a prot monk (bonder, no prot spirit), and killed them. A single monster should NEVER be able to defeat a mesmer in a solo fight, unless you are entirely tooled versus a different class, of they immensely outlevel you.

I just thought that was a pretty cool thing that all mesmers are, even if some are unrealized. Anyone comment?

Draracle · Feb 08, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Yeah, if you want to avoid dmg, Mesmers have the skills. Well, we have the skill to do anything really. I am not set to take dmg; my skills are in dmg, anti-hex, e-drain, interupt, and e-mgmt. I tend to lay down my hexes, get some interupts and then flee any agro I have taken. I also take risks with my mesmer, simply for the fun of it! If I get double hexed I will often just run into the melee and Shatter my Hexes all over the monsters for insane dmg. I tend to move around between the casters and the warriors, working over the melee monsters with hexes while frustrating the enemy casters. This however leaves me open to attacks from monsters breaking agro on the warriors. Since I never plained on taking agro, I lack the skills to handle it. Instead I will flee, loose the agro, then destroy the monster(s) now in the backfield. I do have an anti-weapon build which will protect the entire team from weapon users, in that build I can tank without problem. Four human warriors wouldn't be able to kill me.

Rayne Nightfyre · Feb 08, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Awesome thread, glad to see some positive things being said about mesmers finally.

Just one thing I wanted to clarify:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The enemy warriors don't need adrenaline to tear a mending warmonk into confetti.

There are many other options in shutting down enemy warriors other than draining their adrenaline(Soothing Images). Using spells such as Ineptitude(elite), Clumsiness, and Empathy will deal quick damage, blind them, and damage them everytime they try to attack. Also, to combat the high Health of warriors, use Phantom Pain + Shatter Delusions, to make them suffer from Deep Wound and take a bit of damage. Sympathetic Visage also helps if they like to use attacks that require energy. And in the case of an annoying Healing Signet-spamming tank, slap Ignorance on them. So my point is that a Mesmer's only option in "shutting down" a Warrior is not draining adrenaline, there are many "anti-fighter" skills that take them down rather quickly, and render them practically useless and out of commission for a time (referring to the blinding from Ineptitude, energy drain from SV, and so on).

Rayne Nightfyre · Feb 08, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Mesmers, while often being zeroed in on by monsters, are invulnerable in PvE......

Because so many of mesmer attacks negate the enemy rather than dealing full damage (Inepititude, conundrum, SV, etc), while remaining offensive in your skillset you can handle virtually any aggro breach without risk. We even get the ONLY 75% evade permanently maintainable stance. Our attacks (well, for the hexers among us) are fire-and-forget mainly, so we can still fight as viciously as an Elementalist, and at the same time be merrily kiting, blinding one foe and evading another 3.

In a good group, absolutely they are invulnerable. In my opinion, those are the best type of skills in PvE, the ones that "negate the enemy rather than dealing full damage," as you said. And in most cases they are negated long enough for your team to kill them. Ineptitude alone can save your butt when faced with a fearsome Warrior boss chasing your casters. And Distortion is an amazing skill! That skill by itself can almost enable Mesmers tanking. I would've loved to be in that group seeing you tank

Rayne Nightfyre · Feb 09, 2006, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by animeba

IN PVE:
Fast casting is unimportant. There are very few interrupts. You have all the time in the world to cast your spells. What limits your effective is energy & recharge time. If anyone wants to prove me wrong, list a SPECIFIC situation that require a primary mesmer, which a secondary mesmer or another can't fill......
Some previous poster has questioned my knowledge of the mesmer class, I have taken a mesmer from lv1 to end of the game before deleting it. I am also ranked in pvp.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong here. Fast casting is a huge help. On my usual builds i keep 9-10 in it. Having Fast Casting is not all about avoiding interuption. It is also about casting several skills, one right after the other in succession and in a very short amount of time. Being a Mesmer requires split-second decisions at times, thus having split-second casting will only help. Also, I must disagree with your statement about a secondary Mesmer being just as effective as a primary. The biggest difference in my mind is the ability to have Superior and Minor Mesmer runes, which enables you to have a build such as 15 Domination, 12 Illusion, 9 Fast Casting. A secondary can't even come close to that. An experienced Mesmer knows how many Mesmer skills under different attributes work well with one another, such as Arcane Conundrum(Illusion) combined with Domination's interupt skills. Or Inspiration's Ether Lord combined with Domination's Mind Wrack and so on. My point is that a secondary can only truly focus on one Mesmer attribute at a time, not being anywhere near as effective as a primary Mesmer. So no, I won't question your knowledge of the Mesmer class, but I am seriously questioning the extent to which you have explored a Mesmer in PvE.

Rayne Nightfyre · Feb 09, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by animeba

In pve:
Primary mesmer: unfortunately not very useful. Secondary mesmers can accomplish everything that primary mesmers can. Fast casting is really not needed because of few enemy interrupts.

Secondary mesmer: enormously useful. Provides mantra to reduce damage, & distortion to avoid hits.

Just as a comment on your statements in your first post, I have no clue where on earth you get these ideas, but these quotes shows how little consideration you have really given to the Mesmer profession. I don't intend to be mean about all this, but these are the common misconceptions by those who have not truly played a Mesmer in its entirety, and it appears as if you're following these. So doing a bit more homework before posting your opinions on things may prove to be advantageous.

Avarre · Feb 09, 2006, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayne2550

Using spells such as Ineptitude(elite), Clumsiness, and Empathy will deal quick damage, blind them, and damage them everytime they try to attack. Also, to combat the high Health of warriors, use Phantom Pain + Shatter Delusions, to make them suffer from Deep Wound and take a bit of damage. Sympathetic Visage also helps if they like to use attacks that require energy. And in the case of an annoying Healing Signet-spamming tank, slap Ignorance on them. So my point is that a Mesmer's only option in "shutting down" a Warrior is not draining adrenaline, there are many "anti-fighter" skills that take them down rather quickly, and render them practically useless and out of commission for a time (referring to the blinding from Ineptitude, energy drain from SV, and so on).

Wai~! Quad-post!

Ineptitude and empathy have ridden on my skillbar for some 3 months now, without exclusion, for FoW/UW runs, just for those reasons

LouAl · Feb 09, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

I just saw something about fast casting being unimportant. I was playing in the random arena with my Me/E and decided to go full Air spiker. I put FC at 16 and Air at 12. I brought Elem Attune, Air Attune, and all the Air spells I could.

In the first group I fought against they had 2 (yes 2) Air Spikers (Elem primary). My team started beating on their monk and I killed BOTH of the Elems on their team before their monk was dead. Granted it helped that they were not beuing healed, but neither was I...

To sum up, FC is the bread and butter of a good mesmer. Even if you are doing decidedly un-mesmer stuff. I almost always run around with a sleek mask and superior FC rune just because it is that powerful.

Draracle · Feb 10, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

yeah, people who keep saying other casters have better primaries need to give their head a shake (except monks, but they are a different breed). I don't use a Sup rune, but I do use the mask and a minor to give me 12 points in FC.

One trick, if you aren't doing it already, is to look for break points in your skills. 14 Domination is a great breaking point for many skills in this line. Some skills even have zero increase from 14-16 (E-surge, E-burn, Sig of Weariness are a few I can think of right now). Depending on your skill layout, you might be able to save 16 or 20 or more attribute points by finding a breaking point which will give you the desired effect at the lowest cost. Also, and I know this is obvious, keep your -hp runes on attributes with high point allocation. I see people all the time posting builds with 5 +3 +1 attributes. It is a wast of HP for a very low level skill, you have better have a good reason for it. Considering one Sup in a maxed line (12 w/ the rune) saves you 59 att points. Just thought I would add that to this build discussion, you probably already know but if you didn't, now you do.

LightningHell · Feb 10, 2006, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Wai~!

Are you an HK-er?

Mesmers are teh 0wn0rz.

Every thing said in the thread rings true. Except that Mesmers are still in denial

Avarre · Feb 10, 2006, 11:54 AM // 11:54

I live in Asia (useless information though, its a huge place

), I can use all the expressive terms I want!

Nothing to add, except that Draracle's post is a good one. The only benefit of putting the extra points to get 16 dom is the chance of an 11energy burn at 17 dom, which doesn't outweigh the benefit of only using 14.

Sinjin · Feb 10, 2006, 07:40 PM // 19:40

No offense, but some of you guys need to stop bashing on animeba - and I, for one, agree with a lot of what he says. He's ranked, took a mesmer through the game, and still you guys insist on bashing him, claiming he knows nothing about mesmers. He wasn't even insulting with his statements, he simply expressed his opinions.

1. In PvP - change your skillbars to fit with the team build. Arguing with the group leader's decisions and directives is detrimental to the team. If you feel so strongly that your skillset and personal objectives differ so greatly from the group leader's, then you are better off with another group. If you feel that the group leader is incompetent, you are free to find another group. When I form team builds, the last thing I have tolerance for is "discussing" the trivial differences with a stubborn player. Players that argue aren't team players - they're better off PuG'ing in PvE where they can freely assert the superiority of their own skillbars. However, a PvP mesmer can make the enemy play the game on his terms - denying the enemy's ability to do what he itends to do - and that's the subtle joy I get playing a PvP mes.

2. In PvE - Bad mesmers are common. Bad monks are common. Bad Wammos are common. Bad players, in general, are common. I think it's slightly arrogant to think along these lines: "oh, I'm a mesmer - because I need to understand game mechanics to be effective, I must be a good player". Mesmers in PvE aren't really needed - although it's nice to be able to strip monster enchantments (eg: Aura Of Faith, Mark of Protection, Aura Of The Lich, etc). Sure a mesmer can be cute and blackout an enemy monk. Or he can interrupt a WoH every now and then. He's a utility character, only useful in specific opportunistic situations - consequently, he's best when able to handle both casters and melee, being able to seize those opportunities. In low lvl PvE, mobs have little HP so a conjure phantasm is secksie. In high lvl PvE, the enemy HP is higher, so conjure doesn't really do much. Consequently, one of the best mesmer combos in high lvl PvE is the Phantom-Shatter - it's a high dmg DD that can finish off strong enemies with low HP.

On the other hand, most other mesmer skills take advantage of enemy actions or the inability to act - whereas a Warrior or Nuker can deal DD to anything. What's the point of having a backfire on an enemy monk if you can just nuke and smash his face into oblivion? The backfire might assist the job, but you'll be completely fine without it - just might take a bit longer. Need to remove Mark of Protection? A blood necro can battery the monks and strip enchantments. Anything a mesmer can do, can also be done without him ever being in the group.

Also, from my monks perspective, more mesmers (and eles especially) need to bring defensive skills. I'm not talking about a 1.4 sec ether feast for a mediocre selfheal - I'm talking about skills like distortion, which is an excellent skill. Ineptitude can also save your butt against melee.

***********************

Since many players have beat the game without ever having a mesmer in their many groups simply confirms that mesmers *can* be usefull, but aren't really needed at all.

I expect a lot of flaming for what I just said. Like animeba, I've also taken a mesmer through the game, deleted her, and am ranked. I love mesmers for PvP - but for PvE, I find them to be conditionally useful. There are also a lot of bad mesmers out there - and having a bad mes is like having no mes at all.

LouAl · Feb 10, 2006, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Your point that mesmers aren't needed in PvE is actually true, but it is also true of ALL the classes. What is the point of having a monk if your enemies are dead before you are, what is the point of having a tank if you have a great monk...you can say the same thing about every class in the game. NONE of them are absolutely needed, but all can be of great value if used corectly.

As for having backfire on a monk in PvE (not something that I usually do but I use other skills). Why? Maybe because it will spam orison a few times and will be dead before the wars and nukes get there...

It seems pretty obvious to me that you are not the most experienced mesmer player (or maybe player in a more general sense) if you think that mesmers are not needed but other professions are needed in PvE.

cheers

Sinjin · Feb 10, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

This isn't regarding the value of other professions in GW. Simply, if people have managed to beat the entire game w/o having a single mesmer for any mission, then clearly mesmers aren't as much a necessity as say monks. To the above poster: you can argue over the trivial semantics of saying "ohhh, even monks aren't needed" all you want - you'll just make yourself look silly.

But to get to the real point: if players can beat any given mission/quest without having a mesmer, then are mesmers really such important additions to a party? I don't think they are.

Mesmers can add a lot of utility and can make the mission easier to beat (not to mention efficiently locking down bosses), but they usually aren't the factors that will determine success/failure - and having a mesmer in the party is not critical to being successful.

Unfortunately, other professions, imo, are of more marginal value than mesmers. I love PvP mesmers, but in PvE they are undervalued - parties don't really need them - which was the reason why I ended up deleting my mesmer, even though I enjoyed playing it.

Avarre · Feb 10, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

I had a long post taking each paragraph of yours into account Sinjin, but board database error ate it.

Basically I agree with some of the things (that are all stated already in the thread) that you said, and disagree with a lot more. I'll just directly answer this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

But to get to the real point: if players can beat any given mission/quest without having a mesmer, then are mesmers really such important additions to a party? I don't think they are.

I can hench the whole game. Are players important additions to the party? Just because you don't need them, doesn't mean you won't do better with them.

Rayne Nightfyre · Feb 11, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

It's obvious you do know much about what you're talking about Sinjin, but I must also disagree with a few things you said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

Mesmers can add a lot of utility and can make the mission easier to beat (not to mention efficiently locking down bosses), but they usually aren't the factors that will determine success/failure - and having a mesmer in the party is not critical to being successful.

True, the majority of Mesmers out there haven't a clue what they are doing, which hurts people's general perception of Mesmers. And true, it is possible to complete a Mission/Quest without the use of a Mesmer. But that fact alone does not mean that their spot in your party could be better filled by another profession. They hold their own very well. And yes, many times a Mesmer can determine success or failure. If it's two groups of Jade Armors in Abaddon's Mouth that unexpectedly comes upon your party, a Mesmer can up the chances of coming out of that alive with the casting of Ineptitude, SV, Soothing Images, Empathy, Clumsiness etc. If it's 5 Hydras in Skyward Reach, with the use of Backfire, Arcane Conundrum, Interupts, and so on, they can save your group's butt. So the point I have been trying to stress all along is that Mesmers do have their place in a good group, and simply do up the chances of success in a mission.

Sinjin · Feb 11, 2006, 09:16 AM // 09:16

I would like to see mesmers more appreciated in PvE - unfortunately, they're under appreciated.

Regarding interrupts, an interrupt ranger can do a signicantly better job than an interrupt mesmer.

Although it may be possible to beat the storyline missions with henchmen (which I can imagine would be difficult for the last 3 missions), it's nearly impossible to use henchmen for the titanquests like Last Day Dawns where lvl 4 henchmen get slaughtered by lvl 24 Titans. Additionally, even though you're using henchmen, you're still taking monks and warrior henchmen I assume - which are the professions, and this thread is dealing with the mesmer profession. (it's not a discussion if human players are needed).

LightningHell · Feb 11, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I had a long post taking each paragraph of yours into account Sinjin, but board database error ate it.

I'll try to take up the job, Avarre, however inexperienced I am :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

This isn't regarding the value of other professions in GW. Simply, if people have managed to beat the entire game w/o having a single mesmer for any mission, then clearly mesmers aren't as much a necessity as say monks. To the above poster: you can argue over the trivial semantics of saying "ohhh, even monks aren't needed" all you want - you'll just make yourself look silly.

Note, there are some professions that would be neglected if you make these comments - Elementalists aren't really needed, as you can just about replace them with a Necromancer or Ranger; same for the other two classes. Of course, it's hard to replace a Warder with a Curses necromancer, but then, is a Warder essential to play the game? No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

But to get to the real point: if players can beat any given mission/quest without having a mesmer, then are mesmers really such important additions to a party? I don't think they are.

Neither is an Elementalist, for that matter. Simply, if every class were essential in every group, then I doubt there would be so much diversity around. Plus, it's impossible to make it like that. You just need to live AND deal damage at the same time, then you're ready to go. (I might get hit for this comment

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

Mesmers can add a lot of utility and can make the mission easier to beat (not to mention efficiently locking down bosses), but they usually aren't the factors that will determine success/failure - and having a mesmer in the party is not critical to being successful.

Clearly you haven't seen the Mesmer Power-Blocking that Monk boss in time for that Necromancer and Elementalist to kill it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinjin

Unfortunately, other professions, imo, are of more marginal value than mesmers. I love PvP mesmers, but in PvE they are undervalued - parties don't really need them - which was the reason why I ended up deleting my mesmer, even though I enjoyed playing it.

They are not undervalued. Any group in any RPG gaming world (making generalizations here) needs two things, the means to survive and the means to deal damage. So, if we said "they don't need this class cuz it's not essential", then there would be quite a few useless classes out there.

Quite a controversal topic, I see.